Slow storyline = Tutorial!

[Zantalos]

Hahaha that is a damn sick story.

I'm kinda in agreement with Tokage about having a morning tutorial rather than a slow storyline. For instance the bar fight, why should the player have so much confidence and restraint in his abilities to gently block attacks and try to carefully trip his opponents to the floor? In the first fight of the game, I don't want to have to baby with the enemy, I want to rabbit kick the drunk bastard who punched me in the face and send him through the window, then I want to pick up a bar stool (or see if I'm able) and break it over someone's back and try to impale someone with the broken chair leg. Bar fights are not meant to be passively observed, they are meant to be dove into, unless you are already an expert fighter and this fight is below you, or you at least already quenched your thirst for blood lust in a previous fight, but not the first fight, the first fight should be fought!

I also liked the storyboard in the blog, I think that would be the very best way to start the game before any story happens. I also liked the original Lugaru's fighting tutorial and that it didn't hold back or try to overly teach you something (like lock up all the controls and gradually unlock them as the tutorial progresses, I hate that the most), it was extremely quick and taught you everything you needed to know and then moved on. I think something like that tutorial should happen right before the first fight, and it should be with imagined characters, not with people, because Turner is a hero and is known for it, and he knows how to fight already, so bartenders and other characters shouldn't be teaching him or observing him learn to fight, he should just teach himself and right off the back appear as bad ass in front of other characters as possible. When you fight the three enemies trying to collect your bounty it should be after you had already imagined fighting three enemies at once, and not until you won that fight decisively in your mind. Later fights like the bar fight, can be much more natural to the player after he's had his share of kills.

The player can later choose not to fight in the bar fight because he is so bad ass, or he can choose to go easy and disarm his drunk opponents, either way I think it helps the story and gets the player to better believe he is this hero named Turner.

I like Scene 1, aimlessly allowing turner to explore the city is a cool way to teach a player how to run jump, crouch and wall jump in the form of appropriate hot spots where jumping and crouching is needed to jump higher; I don't think there should be a jail house tutorial that far into the game that says how to make Turner crouch or rabbit kick, that should take one second to teach or shouldn't be taught at all because it is so simple.

I'm curious to how you would do this in a video game and not a book. How do you have narration in the story that tells what Turner is thinking, or that while he wandered the land for five years he heard crazy brave heart stories about himself that made him laugh at loud? Just a flashback cut scene of this happening?

Lastly, I like good stories but I don't like long tutorials. A game can be ruined having too much tutorial. I love Assassin's Creed, I give it a 9.5, but I hate however that the tutorial and beginning exposition is like 4 hours long. I beat the game and tried playing it again but I couldn't, the tutorial was unnecessarily long and was directly involved with the story so it couldn't be skipped. Also, you don't learn your moves all at once, it takes until the 4th assassination until you can actually, counter, combo-hit, dodge and sprint, a ridicules thing to hold back from the player because they are so simple to do and extremely important to know. In my opinion, the player should be taught and have access to everything as quickly and as soon as possible, with as much brevity as possible without confusing the player. Then create stories like escaping the jail, that the player can figure out, using moves he already knows how to do, but definitely not wasting a good puzzle by giving away the answer in tutorial form.

[tokage]

Good reasoning there, Zantalos. That is also my point of view. The story told in this thread is good but that doesn't mean we should waste it on a long tutorial. Of course, a video game story should incorporate a learning curve and I think Lugaru did it very well. There was basic movement and jumping in the first level, than fight against one enemy, fight against two enemies, stealth and introduction of the knife, stealth against multiple enemies and so on. But you could also play the levels I labeled as stealth now differently because it is not part of a tutorial.
Remember the blog post about game design where the problem solving of the user was seen as analogous to machine learning? I think, David put a lot of thought in Lugaru and the same will happen to Overgrowth.


But there is one thing I want to mention here, that you both Zantalos and idbeu were not thinking through properly IMHO.

As night took over, people started leaving the bar. Turner gets a tip about an inn to stay the night, so he headed off. On the way, three drunk rabbits approached him.
[...]
As the rabbits approach, a few tips pop up near the top of the screen. "To attack, use the Attack Key (Mouse_1). To reverse an attack, crouch (c) and attack (Mouse_1) at the same time."

and

Hahaha that is a damn sick story.
I also liked the storyboard in the blog, I think that would be the very best way to start the game before any story happens.

I don't think it is a good idea to have the first fight be against multiple opponents and just not two but already three of them. Either the difficulty will be a lot lower than it was in Lugaru or an unexperienced player wouldn't have a chance.

[TheBigCheese]

I liked the first part for the tutorial, but I think the rest might be a bit too long. I was assuming the first bar fight would also teach you to punch and kill, rather than just blocking.

Once the tutorial is out of the way, the pace should pick up a bit. Also like Zantalos said, it would be hard to incorporate the narration in, which is a lot of what makes the story line good.

In the first fight of the game, I don't want to have to baby with the enemy, I want to rabbit kick the drunk bastard who punched me in the face and send him through the window, then I want to pick up a bar stool (or see if I'm able) and break it over someone's back and try to impale someone with the broken chair leg.

Hopefully, as per my previous suggestion, turning off tutorial mode would allow you to take control of the situation any way you like. If tutorial mode is on, it should walk you through some of the more basic moves, dealing with movement, blocking and reversing. There could be a single person that Turner encounters afterwards that could teach the basics of fighting.

I also liked the original Lugaru's fighting tutorial and that it didn't hold back or try to overly teach you something (like lock up all the controls and gradually unlock them as the tutorial progresses, I hate that the most), it was extremely quick and taught you everything you needed to know and then moved on.

Honestly, I found the tutorial difficult to use effectively. It gave all the information in one chunk, before I could really memorize it. For example: I had learned to do a rabbit kick in the tutorial, but about 3 levels after, when I decided I wanted to use it, I couldn't for the life of me remember. I ended up having to go through the tutorial a second time just to figure out how to do it.

The reason I don't like the proposed storyboard on the blog is because it would be confusing for new players. Having to start off fighting 3 enemies at once, even after going through a tutorial is tough. That kind of storyboard relies on the fact that the player has played the original Lugaru, which I guarantee that 75% of the players will not have.

If the information is eased in as you need it, players will learn it much better. Don't confuse what I'm saying with locking out content, though. I think that all of the moves should be available from the start, but the tutorial mode would teach them as you go along.

[tokage]

Honestly, I found the tutorial difficult to use effectively. It gave all the information in one chunk, before I could really memorize it. For example: I had learned to do a rabbit kick in the tutorial, but about 3 levels after, when I decided I wanted to use it, I couldn't for the life of me remember. I ended up having to go through the tutorial a second time just to figure out how to do it.
[...]
If the information is eased in as you need it, players will learn it much better. Don't confuse what I'm saying with locking out content, though. I think that all of the moves should be available from the start, but the tutorial mode would teach them as you go along.

Being able to go through the tutorial a second time, to remember things or practise moves would also be an argument for having it seperate from the story. I also did the tutorial in Lugaru a second time, because I wanted to have the explanations for the more complex moves once again, after I had actual fighting experience. I also would do the tutorial in Overgrowth if there will be one.
Easing in with a good fit to the story can be a good thing, though. So why not have both? And maybe not a linear tutorial, but something more modular, with stations that teach you something, but it is up to you if you want to take the lesson or just walk by. Storywise, something like a training ground for Turner, gameplaywise more like this

A sandbox area where you can learn the advanced techniques is probably a good idea.

[TheBigCheese]

That actually might not be such a bad idea. At least for the more advanced techniques.

Though, I will ask that hardly any weapon styles are taught. It'd be more fun to discover each of the weapons as you go. Since you can apply many of the same techniques of fists to weapons, a brief walkthrough if needed for each weapon could be shown. Though, only if the weapon introduced some sort of new technique or attack.

[idbeu]

Okay, so first, let me address a few things. As I've thought about this concept, it's painfully obvious my subconcous stole this idea. Luguru had elements of this. Half-Life does pretty much exactly what I am suggesting. I'm sure there are other games out there. My reasonings behind wanting the tutorial to be part of the game are:

a. The game has to start out slowly anyway, because there is a lot of story to tell, and you can't send Turner out to fight without giving him a reason. Anything else is lame.

b. If you've got to tell the story, you may as well put Turner in situations that teach how to control the game.

c. I hate tutorials. I hate being restricted in what I do. I'd rather explore and figure it out for myself. But on the other hand, I hate missing information just because no one told me it was possible. The Lugaru sandbox ("tutorial") drives me crazy because it only lets you do one move at a time, and it takes forever before it lets you advance to the next lesson. It has a place, but OG can do better in this regard.

Has anyone played Half-Life, Episode Two (and One, I think)? There are simple tips that show at the top of the screen in the beginning of the game to explain what is possible. Similar to the way Lugaru showed the tip for jumping high in the first level. It's unobtrusive. You aren't limited to any particular moves, but you still grow to understand how to control your character. OG needs the same. OG probably also needs a sandbox where a user can click a "Show me how to rabbit-kick" button, and the friendly lady will explain how to perform the action.

For instance the bar fight, why should the player have so much confidence and restraint in his abilities to gently block attacks and try to carefully trip his opponents to the floor

You wouldn't. The game should not limit Turner at all. Do what you will. But I think if Wolfire does it right, when you punch a rabbit a few times, he'll back off on his own (or pass out drunk). Feel free to rabbit-kick someone if you know how. But I don't think that'd fit Turner's character well, which is why the story avoids such a scenerio.

because Turner is a hero and is known for it, and he knows how to fight already, so bartenders and other characters shouldn't be teaching him or observing him learn to fight, he should just teach himself and right off the back appear as bad ass in front of other characters as possible.

Turner never was a bad-ass because he wanted to be. Right? He was a bad-ass because he HAD to be. Once he made things right, he wandered off on his own. He didn't try to be a hero, he HAD to be a hero. I don't think there's anything wrong with a in-game character that notices you've died several times, and offers a hint. I think it's kinda funny, actually. And Turner isn't necesserially known. People know of him, but don't have to know what he looks like. Especially if he's in a completely different part of the world.

I don't think there should be a jail house tutorial that far into the game that says how to make Turner crouch or rabbit kick, that should take one second to teach or shouldn't be taught at all because it is so simple.

The problem is, roaming around freely doesn't force the user to learn anything. It has to be more guided, or the player can simply move around the obstacle. The jail forces the user to use rabbit-kick and crouch, so that later in the game, it can be assumed you already know how. One second is plenty of time; a simple tip at the top of the screen is sufficient.

Then create stories like escaping the jail, that the player can figure out, using moves he already knows how to do, but definitely not wasting a good puzzle by giving away the answer in tutorial form.

There will be plenty of good puzzles. We can waste one. It adds to the story and does the intended job of teaching what will be necessary for far harder problems.

I'm curious to how you would do this in a video game and not a book. How do you have narration in the story that tells what Turner is thinking, or that while he wandered the land for five years he heard crazy brave heart stories about himself that made him laugh at loud? Just a flashback cut scene of this happening?

Excellent question. The story as I've written it would have to be told much differently way than a simple narative. To be honest, I think a lot of this story would have to be told by Aubry, in artistic form. Maybe by picking up and reading letters. Snippets could be told between two other rabbits that Turner overhears. I don't know that ALL of this detail could be easily inserted into a scene, but that's okay. There's a lot of detail here that Turner might have to pick up halfway through the game. It doesn't *really* matter when Turner learns it; only that he eventually does.

[Zhukov]

There are some intriguing scenario ideas in here. That said, I really don't like the idea of incorporating a tutorial into the main story. Loads of games have tried it and I am yet to see one get it right. It's occasionally turns out boring, often comes across as lame and always ends up feeling contrived. The main game should catapult the player face-first into the awesome. It should not screw around teaching the player how to perform such wondrous acts as jumping and sidestepping. That's what optional tutorials are for...

A tutorial that takes the form of Turner's morning workout sounds good. Sure, it isn't all innovative and original but it's solid. I especially like Tokage's idea of a tutorial that is modular rather then linear. When I was first playing Lugaru I kept forgetting how to do a wall kick, so I would load up the tutorial for a reminder. It was always a little irritating to go through the whole run-jump-crouch-sneak routine before getting to the part I was actually interested in. A modular structure would get rid of that. It would also allow players to repeat a certain part if they want to. The only thing I'm uncertain about is what kind of enemy would fit into a 'workout' scenario. After all, you need a way to introduce the player to attacks and reversals. A quintain perhaps...?

Regarding Thebigcheese's point above regarding weapons: you could incorporate an 'unlockable' aspect into the tutorial with weapons. To begin with the tutorial could include a bare minimum of weapons. Perhaps one melee weapon (cudgel) one pole weapon (spear) and one ranged weapon (knife). Then as the player finds new weapons and equipment they are added to the tutorial. This way you would get to 'discover' them mid-game, and still have the opportunity to practice with them outside of the main campaign.

Some miscellaneous points regarding tutorials:
- Please give the player access to all movements/actions right from the start. You got this right in Lugaru. Anything else is cause for irritation*.
- Weapons are a little different, but the same principle should apply. The player should have encountered most weapons by the time they are halfway through the campaign**.
- The player must have the option to skip tutorials. Mandatory tutorials are almost as odious as mandatory cut-scenes.


*Anyone here played Oni? Great game. I still consider it the benchmark for third person fighting games. However one thing that annoyed the hell out of me was that some of the best moves only became available towards the end of the game. The player never got to use them enough. "Oh wow! Stepping disarm kicks arse! Take that! And that! Whoooho-" GAME OVER
**Lugaru did not quite get this right. There was very little opportunity to use a staff or sword. "Hey, a sword. Cool. Let's see what this baby is capab-" GAME OVER. Luckily, the presence of these weapons in the challenge levels made up for it.

[idbeu]

I think, David put a lot of thought in Lugaru and the same will happen to Overgrowth.

Yes. I've often wondered what David (et. al.) thought when reading this post. I can imagine them going "Ooooh, that's cute that they're trying to write stories!"

I don't think it is a good idea to have the first fight be against multiple opponents and just not two but already three of them. Either the difficulty will be a lot lower than it was in Lugaru or an unexperienced player wouldn't have a chance.

Ha ha! Yeah, that was a stupid mistake on my part. I think the easy fix is to have the first few opponets approach you one at a time. In the bar fight, you'll only get approached by another rabbit if you fight off the one you are with. In the street scene, two of the rabbits can say something like "Hey Bill, YOU can take him!" and sit back and watch. But yeah. Point taken.

I liked the first part for the tutorial, but I think the rest might be a bit too long. I was assuming the first bar fight would also teach you to punch and kill, rather than just blocking.

And it would. But there is a lot to learn that a bar fight can't accomplish. Remember, there is a LOT for the player to catch up on. Turner has been wandering the wilderness for who knows how long? There are now three other kinds of animals that somehow popped up. If the story doesn't move toward explanining how these things came about, I think the game will seem unnecesserially shallow. I enjoyed Luguru's story-telling not because it was 'deep', but because it was shallow. Either OG should move toward the really cheesy, or it should move to the really deep. No lukewarm story, please. Given the nature of the engine and the detail in the elements they've released, I suspect they're going for 'deep'.

Keep in mind too, that my story takes place really, really quickly. That's about 5, 10 minutes of gameplay there. Maybe less.

(oops, forgot to submit this last night. Heh heh.)