Lugaru Linux?

[smack]

I saw your post on slashdot. Your game looks super sweet and I would love to play it on linux.

You might try contacting Icculus about the linux porting. He might be able to provide the service you want. He has an impressive resume for linux game porting.

http://www.icculus.org/~icculus/

[justaquestion]

i saw your post on slashdot as well. definitely looks like an interesting game and i would definitely be interested in a linux port(since my linux box is the computer with the gforce 5 card in it). but, i was just curious about the licensing issues that could arise. first, i understand that your game is shareware. ok...cool....but, you've linked it against LGPL'ed libs....

To comply with this license, you must give prominent notice that you use the Simple DirectMedia Layer library, and that it is included under the terms of the LGPL license. You must include a copy of the LGPL license.
You must also do one of the following:

1. Include the source code for the version of SDL that you link with, as well as the full source or object code to your application so that the user can relink your application,
or
2. Include a written offer, valid for at least three years, to provide the materials listed in option 1, charging no more than the cost of providing this distribution,
or
3. Make the materials listed in option 1 available from the same place that your application is available.

The most common way to comply with the license is to dynamically link with SDL, and then include the SDL source code and appropriate notices with your application.

Embedded Use:
Personally, I don't have a problem with anybody statically linking SDL for use with embedded environments that don't already have an open development environment. (i.e. the users can't relink programs anyway) However, this does technically violate the LGPL, so be cautioned.

so, my question is, while it is more than likely possible to make the source to the shareware version of your game available(users would only be able to compile the source and have a binary version of the shareware code), how would you provide source code to the full registered version to registered users, staying within the limitations of the LGPL license, and all the while trying to ensure that a staunch open source supporter doesn't decide to "liberate" said code to the world at large?

[David]

I think this basically just means I have to link to the SDL source code if someone asks for it, not that I have to provide the source for my project.

[justaquestion]

I think this basically just means I have to link to the SDL source code if someone asks for it, not that I have to provide the source for my project.

well, if you read item 1, it states, "as well as the source for your application" and items 2 and 3 basically point to item 1. David, i'm not trying to "piss on your parade", if you'll pardon the expression. i think it looks like an awesome game, as the combat system is quite unique and i would like to see more commercial games available for Linux. it's just that i don't want to see a licensing issue causing a possible litigation that would discourage you and future developers of games for linux.

perhaps you could implement idsoftware's model of providng source to create binaries BUT withhold the necessary items that would be required to run the game like textures, models, sounds, etc. to see what i mean visit ftp.idsoftware.com. they have both windows and linux source available, but you HAVE to have purchased a full retail version to be able to do anything with the resulting compiled binaries. this gives you an opportunity to earn a well-deserved living from your efforts and at the same time offers the members of your community to create derivative works from the source code to which they can add their own models, textures, sounds, etc. creating software for linux can be tricky, especially if you link it against LGPL'ed or GPL'ed software, whereby, YOUR software and source code now becomes GPL'ed or LGPL'ed as well.

i don't think the trick is going to be finding linux developers who are willing to work for pay. i think the trick is finding the right libs with the right license, or the right model and conditions under which you can release your game.

and i really hope you do, cuz i really like the look and uniqueness of your game. my best wishes for a most successful future to you.

[Jeff]

Hmm, if the source code was released, how would you deal with people who extract the serial number info, or just drop in the 100k of map data.

[darktama]

From the LGPL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html)

Code: Select all

a) Accompany the work with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code for the Library including whatever changes were used in the work (which must be distributed under Sections 1 and 2 above); and, if the work is an executable linked with the Library, with the complete machine-readable "work that uses the Library", as object code and/or source code, so that the user can modify the Library and then relink to produce a modified executable containing the modified Library. (It is understood that the user who changes the contents of definitions files in the Library will not necessarily be able to recompile the application to use the modified definitions.)

You DO NOT have to release the code to *your* application. What you must do is provide the source to any changes to the LGPL code you link with. You provide the object files (intermediate compiled form of an executable) necessary to re-link your application against the LGPL libraries, not the source.

I haven't fully read the LGPL licence myself, as I prefer to use the GPL personally. So there may be some other condition I missed, but as far as I was aware the LGPL was invented to allow use of LGPL'd code in proprietary applications.

[justaquestion]

it appears i stand corrected.

[dolson]

I hate registering for forums to talk about games that may or may not ever see the light of day on Linux, but I thought I should this time...

Killer bunnies? Very cool. Donnie Darko holds a special place in my heart, and this was the first thing I thought of when I saw the first screenshot.

I checked out the videos and screenshots, and I will be the first to register my Linux copy when it is complete, provided that it will work on Debian Sid, and does NOT use Cedega/WineX/Wine/Winelib "technologies." There is no reason to use Wine stuff given how trivial this should be to port, using SDL, OpenGL, and OpenAL (I assume I read that right, on /. and earlier in this thread).

I would contact LGP or someone from icculus.org (myself excluded) about it.

Please feel free to email me first as soon as the game is ported, and I will register it (as long as the demo works). I will also encourage others to do so, but can only promise for myself. Just use the email address that I used to sign up for your forum.

There are lots of commercial games that use LGPL libraries, and they don't release code. So don't worry about that rumor, as well as those that say that Linux users are cheap and don't want to pay for anything. I own a ton of Linux games (I think it's about 45 to 50 so far) and they were all legally purchased at EB Games or online from eBay or Tux Games (none were purchased from Transgaming, and none will be). And I'm not the only one. Yes, the market is small, but it will grow over time. We can't have a market if we don't have games. Most are reluctant to port - it's the chicken and the egg problem. You are willing to do the port, so you are being part of the solution, and that is awesome.

Also, if you need someone to beta test, I will volunteer. I have tested some games with LGP and Ryan Gordon (Devestation, Majesty Gold, SoulRide, Ning Po Mah Jong, Hyperspace Delivery Boy, Ballistics, Software Tycoon, and I think that's most of them that were non-open betas).

Finally, if you put Lugaru 2 on Linux, I'll buy it too. This game looks very sweet. Consider multiplayer too, with customizable model skins (for IDs) it could be fun.

[Jeff]

(In response to the previous post)

Ryan Gordon is going to be porting Lugaru! Lugaru is coming to Linux, and you know it will be top quality.

Lugaru 2 is being written from the ground up with compatibility in mind, so you can count on it to run on everything from the start.

[GrueMaster]

I am a subscriber to Winex/Cedega, and this game runs well under the latest Cedega (4.4). Since it used SDL and other open libraries, porting should be fairly easy and straight forward.

For thouse of you wanting to run now, get Cedega at transgaming.com, although I would still like to see a native port.

Tobin

[GrueMaster]

I actually took the time to read all the posts finally, and I noticed some people have issues with wine/winex/cedega. If you used to work for Loki, and are still bent out of shape about Deus Ex, get over it please. Wine/Winex/Cedega do not take money away from game porters. Game porters will only be successfull if they are included in the game development prior to release, not 6 months after. Most gamers lose interest in a game after a few months, when the next big game comes out.

Like I said before, I fully support native ports (I have all of Loki's games). But if that isn't an option (Battlefield is an example), then I will do what I can to remain in Linux.

To me, Windows is not an option. I use XP at work ONLY for email (forced by IT). Everything else I need is in Linux.

Tobin

[Stas]

/. directs me here too. Screenshots looks greatly, but maybe too few objects on them.

Just watch movies - they looks very cool.

I can represent one (me ) or more (whole team) linux programmers with rich experience in cross-OS programming (Number of multiplatform apps).
If you are interested in our services, feel free to email me.

@ stas _at onlineua dot_ net

[adcprod]

I ran the demo on my XP laptop and really enjoyed it. (Yes XP is a godforsaken OS, but why hate Linux so much young man/13-year-old? Geeze. What did it do to you?) It was nice being able to run a reasonably new game on it with no problem! The gameplay is similar (in some ways) to Oni, which was a game I really enjoyed for its uniqueness as well when it came out. I really thought that the 3rd person fighter genre would take off after that, but it never did (unless you count GTA, which I think is different).

Your game is the first I've seen like it. (I'm not a big gamer though so maybe there have been a lot of 3rd person fighter things I haven't seen.) Please don't take the comparison to Oni as an insult. Lugaru is still so unique and the ninja bunny rabbits make it so much more entertaining and fun. The rag doll physics just make me laugh so hard at times. That's the mark of a truly good game to me. I'm so tired of Quake 9 or whatever dreck is being put out for PCs these days. With all the technology available, it is so nice to see a small gaming company use it to focus on what matters, GAMEPLAY! (And humor!) I also must add that, maybe I haven't played the game into the ground yet, but while I have improved at it, I haven't found that the enemies are too predictable in how they will attack. I really appreciate that too. Oni became very predictable after a while. Perhaps any game can be, but I can tell a lot of effort went into the AI for Lugaru.

I will wait for the Linux version myself before registering, because I want to encourage these sorts of things to happen. Also, I'm working towards an MBA and I need to focus on school right now, not on kicking bunny rabbit ass. Though kicking bunny rabbit ass is more fun than Statistics any day of the week. PLEASE Add multiplayer (something Oni only had in a beta version I think) to Lugaru 2 (even if it only works on a LAN or over FiOS/INET2) and you'll have a bonafide hit on your hands (in my opinon anyway). Plus with this talk of porting, is it too expensive to develop it for a console?

I really hope the Slashdot exposure brings you a lot of good fortune. As a former member of the tech media myself, I can tell you that a lot of people look to Slashdot for story ideas. Often some good exposure there can bring you other attention from the press. Plus, if you really want to make a splash in the press with Lugaru 2, here's what I'd do...

1. Release all the demos simultaneously.
2. Release the full Linux version first. I'm sure Slashdot would go crazy over that. I'm sure it would translate into some sales (and people asking you to release source code, of course) and more media attention.
3. If Apple Intel is out at that time, release the game for it next (along with OSX PPC). Binaries from PPC for MS Office might be okay to run on Apple Intel, but I'm sure most games from the old PPC OSX will run like crap (if at all) under emulation. The Mac fans will be dying for games to run on that shiny new box.
4. Leave the Windows users wanting for a little bit.

(Maybe after #3 or #4 you could even throw in a console version or two?)

From the media's perspective, I do have to ask one media-type question. I'm not personally one of the people who likes to say video games are violent, and therefore they're to blame for the ills in society. However, I do have to wonder about the scene in the beginning of the story version with the main character's family killed and the rape being hinted at. It seems pretty raw for kids. I realize that Lugaru is not the first violent game demo to be available in download form, but if children can download this and run it without any safeguards (yes I know parents should be watching, blah, blah, blah and yes they are bunnies not people) does that worry you from a legal perspective being a small company and all? There are no ratings that I saw on the site. Perhaps it costs money to be rated. If there were ratings and I didn't see them, nothing was there to stop me from downloading the game, not even a warning. I'm not trying to cause trouble. I'm just asking.

That said, best of luck with this outstanding game!

[zip]

I distinctly remember that the Lugaru page used to say something like "While this is a game about bunny rabbits, this game is NOT for kids!".

Considering what kids are watching on TVs these days, that hardcore XXX is just a mouse click away on Google, and that a whole lot of kids under 10 have played Manhunt and listened to Candy Shop(though that is a mild example).... I wouldn't be too concerned

[Jeff]

I am 99% sure that there is no legal action anyone could take. There is no law against releasing violent games on your own personal website. If David actually got sued because some kid downloaded his game and got scared, that would be a real story for Slashdot. The huge media frenzy and instant shuttling of Lugaru to the mainstream would more than make up for the lawsuit.